a good 4x5 Macro lens?

[E Hickok via PhotoKB.com]

I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock 210 lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I saw a few Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around $70, which seems really cheap.

Since I'm new at this I'm not sure if that would work and if so, what else I would need. It said that the 35 and 135mm lenses fit a copal 1 shutter- but I'm embarrased to say that I'm not sure what that means.

And how do I find a lens board that fits?

Sorry for my ignorance- I'm a student, and my teachers aren't much help.

[Shelley]

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock 210

lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I saw a few
Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around $70, which seems
really cheap.

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
Since I'm new at this I'm not sure if that would work and if so, what else

I would need. It said that the 35 and 135mm lenses fit a copal 1 shutter-
but I'm embarrased to say that I'm not sure what that means.

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
And how do I find a lens board that fits?
Sorry for my ignorance- I'm a student, and my teachers aren't much help.
--
Message posted via http://www.photokb.com

[CamArtsMag]

How close do you want to be. The 210 will be fine down to a 1:2 reproduction
ratio (where the image on the film is 1/2 the size of the real object/subject).
Closer than that and I would recommend a lens designed for closeup work.

A very good macro lens is the Nikkor/Nikon 120mm. It is designed for closeup
work and will come in a shutter.

You will probably want a lensboard for each lens so I suggest getting another
board.. When you order it you will want to tell them what size hole (for the
shutter) you will want. At your stage of experience I would not suggest getting
a lens not already in a shutter or getting an unknown lens.

Here is some reading that will be helpful

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone

Using the View Camera that I wrote for Amphoto

Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga (this is oriented towards
landscape photography.

View Camera Technique is also out there but IMHO it is a tome and not a good
friendly book for beginners.

There are some other discussion groups you might want too check into as well

www.apug.org not just large format but a good place to know about.

www.viewcamera.com also has several free articles and a discussion forum.

There is another one as well and I will list the address in a few minutes.

steve simmons

[Largformat]

Here is the other discussion forum where you can get help

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/

good luck

steve simmons

[Shelley]

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock 210

lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I saw a few
Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around $70, which seems
really cheap.

I don't know exactly what you consider "macro" but I'd suggest trying your
210 for close up work before springing for a true macro 4x5 lens. You'd need
a 420mm bellows to get a 1:1 magnification ratio with a 210mm lens but even
if the bellows on your camera isn't that long you still should be able to
get pretty close with a 210mm lens.

I don't know anything about the Tominon lenses you mention except that 35mm
would be incredibly wide for a 4x5 lens so it (and the others as well)
probably is for a smaller format than 4x5. They certainly are cheap for 4x5
lenses, so cheap in fact that it's hard to believe they're any good even if
they do cover 4x5.

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
Since I'm new at this I'm not sure if that would work and if so, what else

I would need. It said that the 35 and 135mm lenses fit a copal 1 shutter-
but I'm embarrased to say that I'm not sure what that means.

"Copal" is the brand name of a Japanese shutter used on most large format
lenses currently made. The number 1 refers to the size of the hole on the
lens board in which the shutter fits. There are 0, 1, and 3 Copal shutters
(no 2) in increasing order of size (and cost).

The true macro lenses for 4x5 that I've seen were very expensive, more than
you probably paid for your camera. I've never used one so I don't know how
big an improvement they are over a normal lens used close up. If you really
want something designed for close up work without paying the price of a
macro lens check out a 150mm Schneider G Claron. You should be able to find
one on e bay for under $200. They're optimized for 1:1 magnification but are
good general purpose lenses as well and often are sold in Copal shutters.
Your bellows certainly must be at least 300mm long, which is the length
you'd need to get 1:1 magnfication with a 150mm lens.

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
And how do I find a lens board that fits?

Toyo lens boards are sold by many dealers, there's nothing unusual about
them except that they aren't the same size as the Linhof size that many 4x5
cameras use so used ones aren't so plentiful. Any dealer that sells Toyo
cameras should sell the lens board. If you buy a lens with a Copal shutter
you'll have no trouble. But if whatever lens you buy has an older shutter
and no lens board you may have to buy an undrilled lens board and have the
hole cut to fit the shutter because the older shutters weren't standardized
in size from one brand to another.

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock 210

lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I saw a few
Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around $70, which seems
really cheap.

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
Since I'm new at this I'm not sure if that would work and if so, what else

I would need. It said that the 35 and 135mm lenses fit a copal 1 shutter-
but I'm embarrased to say that I'm not sure what that means.

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
And how do I find a lens board that fits?
Sorry for my ignorance- I'm a student, and my teachers aren't much help.
--
Message posted via http://www.photokb.com

[Bandicoot]

"Shelley" <***@nospam.net> wrote in message news:_Nnyd.7930$***@trnddc03...
[SNIP]

Post by Shelley
I don't know anything about the Tominon lenses you mention except
that 35mm would be incredibly wide for a 4x5 lens so it (and the others >

as well) probably is for a smaller format than 4x5. They certainly are

Post by Shelley
cheap for 4x5 lenses, so cheap in fact that it's hard to believe they're
any good even if they do cover 4x5.

These lenses are specifically designed for macro on a 4x5 Polaroid copy
camera. This means they do cover 4x5, but only within their intended
magnification ranges. The 135mm and 127mm ones I'm pretty sure cover at
infinity, and the 105mm and 75mm may, I'm not sure. The 50mm, 35mm, and
17mm don't: they are intended for quite high magnification, and at those
sorts of extensions then, of course, they do cover. There's a something
about the Polaroid MP-4 copy camera on the Polaroid web-site that tells you
what the intended magnification range is for each of these lenses.

Within their intended ranges, these lenses are actually pretty good. I have
a Polaroid MP-3 camera and use it with the Tominon and Ysaron lenses (and
others) for some big blow ups - they do a fine job.

The 135 to 75mm ones usually come already in a shutter (I wouldn't get one
if it didn't). This is generally a version of the Prontor Press shutter
specially made for Polaroid. The 50mm and shorter ones all screw into a
special diaphragm-less Prontor shutter, and these lenses each have their own
diaphragm.

[SNIP]

Post by Shelley
The true macro lenses for 4x5 that I've seen were very expensive, more
than you probably paid for your camera. I've never used one so I don't
know how big an improvement they are over a normal lens used close
up. If you really want something designed for close up work without
paying the price of a macro lens check out a 150mm Schneider G
Claron. You should be able to find one on e bay for under $200.
They're optimized for 1:1 magnification but are good general purpose
lenses as well and often are sold in Copal shutters.

I use a Rodenstock Apo Ronar, which is another alternative to the G Claron.
A very nice lens.

Don't be put off trying macro with any lens though, as long as you have the
necessary bellows extension. True macro lenses do produce better images,
but any (decent, modern) lens for 4x5 will still produce an image that is
better than the very finest specialised macro lens on 35mm...



Peter

[Thor Lancelot Simon]

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock 210
lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I saw a
few Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around $70, which
seems really cheap.

I don't know what format those are meant for, but I can assure you that
it's not 4x5.

For macro work, I would recommend process lenses such as the 150mm (6")
Artar or the G-Claron. Another good choice -- if you can find one --
would be the lens from a Polaroid copy camera. All of these designs are
well suited to macro work and it will not be too hard to find such a
lens in a shutter. Shorter lenses such as the 135mm or 120mm G-Claron
will cover 4x5 for macro work; an Artar shorter than 6" may not.

[David Nebenzahl]

Post by Thor Lancelot Simon

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock 210
lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I saw a
few Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around $70, which
seems really cheap.

I don't know what format those are meant for, but I can assure you that
it's not 4x5.
For macro work, I would recommend process lenses such as the 150mm (6")
Artar or the G-Claron. Another good choice -- if you can find one --
would be the lens from a Polaroid copy camera.

Um, I believe that lens would be a Tominon, wouldn't it? Those lenses
(including some of the focal lengths he mentioned seeing above) should work
for 4x5, no?

[Thor Lancelot Simon]

Post by David Nebenzahl

Post by Thor Lancelot Simon

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock 210
lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I saw a
few Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around $70, which
seems really cheap.

I don't know what format those are meant for, but I can assure you that
it's not 4x5.
For macro work, I would recommend process lenses such as the 150mm (6")
Artar or the G-Claron. Another good choice -- if you can find one --
would be the lens from a Polaroid copy camera.

Um, I believe that lens would be a Tominon, wouldn't it? Those lenses
(including some of the focal lengths he mentioned seeing above) should work
for 4x5, no?

I've only seen Ysarons. Were there Tominons on the Polaroid cameras, too?

If the 35mm lens covers 4x5, it must be at one astonishingly large
ratio indeed -- 10:1? 20:1? -- it is hard to imagine it being practical
for use doing anything but copying very, very small parts of documents
with extreme detail.

[David Nebenzahl]

Post by Thor Lancelot Simon

Post by David Nebenzahl

Post by Thor Lancelot Simon

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock 210
lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I saw a
few Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around $70, which
seems really cheap.

I don't know what format those are meant for, but I can assure you that
it's not 4x5.
For macro work, I would recommend process lenses such as the 150mm (6")
Artar or the G-Claron. Another good choice -- if you can find one --
would be the lens from a Polaroid copy camera.

Um, I believe that lens would be a Tominon, wouldn't it? Those lenses
(including some of the focal lengths he mentioned seeing above) should work
for 4x5, no?

I've only seen Ysarons. Were there Tominons on the Polaroid cameras, too?

I have one Tominon (a 127mm) that came from a Polaroid copy camera. You're
right, though: I also have a "regular" (i.e., non-copy) Polaroid, a
top-of-the-line model, that came with a Rodenstock Ysarex (not Ysaron), also
127mm.

Post by Thor Lancelot Simon
If the 35mm lens covers 4x5, it must be at one astonishingly large
ratio indeed -- 10:1? 20:1? -- it is hard to imagine it being practical
for use doing anything but copying very, very small parts of documents
with extreme detail.

Well, I said *some* of the focal lengths. Probably not 35.

[Stacey]

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock 210
lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I saw a
few Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around $70, which
seems really cheap.

The 75mm won't cover 4X5 at infinity but for "macro" work it would. I have a
rodenstock ysaron 105mm that I use for close up work and it's excellent for
this use. It only covers 6X9 at infinity and used for this isn't that
great, but for close up work, it has no problem covering 4X5 and is lots
sharper than when I tried to use my normal lenses for this type of thing.

[Dan Fromm]

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
I just bought my 1st 4x5 camera, a Toyo-View 45CX with a Rodenstock

210 lens, but I want to be able to do some macro work in my studio. I
saw a few Tominon lenses (35mm, 75mm, and 135mm) on ebay for around
$70, which seems really cheap.

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
Since I'm new at this I'm not sure if that would work and if so, what

else I would need. It said that the 35 and 135mm lenses fit a copal 1
shutter- but I'm embarrased to say that I'm not sure what that means.

Post by E Hickok via PhotoKB.com
And how do I find a lens board that fits?
Sorry for my ignorance- I'm a student, and my teachers aren't much help.
--
Message posted via http://www.photokb.com

You've been given some stupid wrong answers about MP-4 Tominons. First
off, the lenses are in barrel and are male M40x0.75 at the rear. By an
odd coincidence that won't bear close examination, the front threads of
a #1 shutter are female M40x0.75. The lenses screw into the front of a
shutter.

For a general discussion of lenses for photomacrography, mainly at
magnifications above 1:1, visit
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/microlen.htm.

Text about MP-4 Tominons lifted from there:

FROM: Ken Rice
SUBJECT: Polaroid macro lens specs
DATE: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:45:15 GMT
ORGANIZATION: Intermedia Business Internet - Beltsville, MD
NEWSGROUPS: rec.photo.equipment.large-format

I posted a comment about doing macro on 4x5 view cameras using the
macro
lenses designed for the Polaroid MP-3 and the MP-4. Someone responded
by
asking for more information than I supplied in the first post. (Sorry,
lost that address, but here it is).

Construction Focal Length Min. mag. Max. mag. Mag 1
ext. Mag. 2 ext.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4 el. 3 group 135mm Infinity 1.3x 2.2x
3.3x
4 el. 3 group 105mm .3x 1.9x 3.1x
4.3x
4 el. 3 group 75mm 2.0x 3.2x 4.8x
6.4x
6 element 50mm 1.5x 5.2x 7.6x
10.0x
symetrical triplet
4 el. 3 group 35mm 5.0x 8.0x 11.1x
14.8x
6 el. 4 group 17mm 10.0x 19.8x 26.9x
34.0x
10mm 27x

The specs are extracted from a number of things that I have in my files
at school. Min. mag. means minimum magnification when mounted on a
Polaroid MP-4 (I don't have any literature from the MP-3, but suspect
that specifications would be quite similar). Max. mag. means Maximum
magnification. Polaroid's MP-4 has a fairly short bellows and they sell
extension pieces to compensate. When mounted on a studio view, the
maximum magnification could exceed the 2 ext. figures.
Magnification means the number of diameters of magnifications at
the
film plane. For example a coin measuring 10mm would give an image of
20mm at the film plane at 2.0x. Another way of expressing this is to
say
that 2.0x provides a 200% magnificaton.
The 10mm lens is a rare bird. The only specifications that I have
(shown above starting with 27x) come from a pamphlet on CU-5 operation.
When removed from the Polaroid CU-5, frames, the lenses and
shutters
are the same as used on the MP-4 (the lenses and shutters for the MP-3
vary only slightly and are easily mounted on a lens boardóin fact the
MP-3 used small aluminum lens boards, while the MP-4 uses flat plastic
disks (they're round).

This text is congruent with Polaroid's data sheets on the lenses.

If you had done a Google search for Tominon in
rec.photo.equipment.large-format, lazy student, you would have found
this.

[DMLStar]

Polaroid-Tominon lenses come from several sources:

MP-4 Copy Camera: all the lenses in this series were barrel lenses that screwed
into a common shutter labeled MP-4. I assume this was to lower the cost of
lenses. These lenses are the newest of the group. MP-4 used a round lense
board.

MP-3 Copy Camera: Each of the lenses in this series came with their own
shutter. The MP-3 used a small square lense board.

Specialty Cameras like an oscilloscope cameras( C-4 Model with 105 lens),
Cameras used to photograph electrophoresis plates in Biology or dental work. I
believe this may have been the CU-5. The lenses associated with the CU-5 had a
ring flash built in to the box holding the lense to the camera. This camera had
several different lenses(3" and 5").

However all these specialty cameras used the Polaroid 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 film packs
and I am not sure if the lenses are the same as the ones used on the MP-3 copy
camera or if they will cover a 4x5 negative.

Hope that helps.

Dave